Dave Winer is supposed to be some big-deal computer brainhead, but where the war in Iraq is concerned, he might as well be a ten-day-old corpse for all the useful insight he can bring to this subject. Let us examine his assertions. Skip the BS about us being in Iraq's "house," -- except to note that he seems to think that this is a bad thing. Yeah, Uncle Sam is in the hizzouse now. You saying something's wrong with that?
It's this passage that is the most precious:
If you have a choice, you have no excuse going to war. You can only go to war if you have no choice. I'm sorry Dubya. Let's just put the tanks in reverse and bring the boys home. Say we're sorry and ask for forgiveness. It'll be a lot easier than playing it out. This war is just plain wrong.
I've got a little something to say to that (and I'm going to swear like a truck driver so be warned):
Just what the hell do you mean by "choice"? You don't bother to say -- perhaps since the only thing resembling "choice" would be to let Iraq remain in Saddamite purgatory until the end of time. Ass. You blab about how awful it is that we are tracking dust all over the nice carpet of Iraq, and then you imply that their lives really don't mean shinola to you.
And I'd like to know one thing:
"Put the tanks in reverse," he says. "Put the tanks in reverse"??? Put them in fucking REVERSE??? What the HELL is this moron smoking? We can't just back up out of Iraq like a guy who's gone up the wrong highway ramp backing up his Chevy S-10. What the hell do you think we've been doing for the past week, Winer? Do you actually think we can just beam out of there, like on Star Trek? YOU ARE AN IDIOT, DAVID WINER.
And the arrogance of "Say we're sorry and ask for forgiveness." Jesus H. Bend Me Over and Fist Me Christ, this guy has just outdone Michael Moore. Moore only claimed to speak for the whole goddamn American working class. Winer seems to think that all we have to do is "apologize" and tell the Iraqi people "You can go on back to your suffering and oppression, sorry for the dead people, big holes, and broken windows -- but see, David Winer is a big computer brain, and he's all bummed and this war news is making him frown and feel all funny in his tummy, so we have to leave! We won't be picking up before we go either -- Dave said now, so we have to skedaddle! Now remember, be nice to Qusay -- he'll be your new boss!" And see, they'll be okay with it, 'cos Dave Winer is a nice man and bad things don't happen in his world to good little boys and girls who apologize nicely! It does not seem to have occurred to him (well, that would take thought, and that does not seem to have been used by Mr. Winer to write this) that stuff like his magnanimous offer is what makes the Iraqis think we are not to be trusted, and as long as people like Winer continue to go about with their heads jammed completely up the cracks of their asses in this manner, the Iraqis will be right.
Then he goes into a hysterical rant about how we just can't win this war, so I guess that the BBC, Al-Jazeerah, and Iraqi state teevee are the Winer household's main sources of news. Then there is a whole bunch of stuff about how the Fearsome Arab Fighter Terrorist Jihad The CIA FBI Suicide Bombers AAH! WE'RE DOOMED! EVERYONE RUN TO THE HILLS!
Perhaps Mr. Winer was afraid that if he didn't say anything about the war, he would be thought of as a fool. Well, now that he has said something, we no longer merely have to think that.
(By the way, the link in the above quote, copied from the original, goes to an image of very large black letters that spell out the word "wrong." I kid you not. What the hell is that supposed to prove? That he knows how to use Photoshop to make a jpeg?)
[Via Dean Esmay.]
Posted by Andrea Harris at April 1, 2003 02:51 AMBeing a computer science major myself, there does seem to be a significant percentage(still less than half though) of morons in that line of study.
They usually flame out before they graduate, but unfortunately, some don't.
Posted by: James P at April 1, 2003 at 03:29 AMOh man! I couldn't resist - I had to email Dave about that one and I included a link to this post. I am an evil woman. :-)
Posted by: Lynn S at April 1, 2003 at 08:52 AMSometimes I think the left part of America is still at some frat party where you can apologize to the girl you just spilled beer on and back out. It would be nice to start to take some of them seriously.
Posted by: Patty at April 1, 2003 at 09:07 AM"So long as you have a choice...."
Hmmm. That would work well, if everyone in the world adhered to it. But, hey, Marxism or the Golden Rule would work well, if everyone adhered to it.
The problem arises when you have someone who shows up on your doorstep and says, "Gimme."
Were Austria, Prussia, Russia, and Britain wrong to have gone to war w/ Napoleon? They did, after all, have a choice, didn't they, of not going to war? Indeed, it was Napoleon, iirc, who said that it is the resistor that causes wars. Aggressors would like nothing better than to obtain that which they desire peacefully.
And Chamberlain? Ah, there's a hero! He had a chocie, war or peace, and he chose peace. Peace in our time, in fact. Churchill, OTOH, he advocated war. Not very peaceable, eh?
Ahistorical. Moron.
Posted by: Dean at April 1, 2003 at 10:40 AMJust to add a little fuel to the fire...
I used to lurk a mailing list that was full to the brim with real "big-deal computer brainheads" and eventually Mr. Winer was forced to retreat, tail-between-legs style, after the umpteenth incredibly stupid thing he wrote. Note that the subject matter was not political, but technical.
Of course, he represented it as a victory.
Posted by: Alan at April 1, 2003 at 12:57 PMWhat a idiot!
I'm sorry, but if we were to back out now, what's to stop all the tin-pot dictators from rolling over us? After all, the US would show that we don't follow through on anything.
Beg for forgivness? For what?
ARGH!
(Sorry... I think I need to not chug my coffee...)
Posted by: Ninjababe at April 1, 2003 at 01:56 PMWell Mr. Winer seems to be making the whole ordeal come off as being a bit simplistic, but he does make a few good points. You should only go to war if there is no other choice, and there were plenty of choices in this one. Also, you say something along the lines of "...you saying there's something wrong with that?" Well yeah, there's plenty wrong with uncle Sam being in "Iraq's house". The van full of women and children murdered by trigger happy American soldiers, the cruise missiles landing in people's front hallways, the resulting severe economic consequences for the US and Iraq, the inevitable collapse of the UN which will be brought about by G.W. selling Iraq to Haliburton and other big business. This war isn't a good idea, unless you're dick cheney that is.
Posted by: Habjan at April 1, 2003 at 07:15 PMHabjan:
Nice recapitulation of talking points.
Unfortunately:
The civvies you cite were not "murdered" by American soldiers. The vehicle did not stop, and after the suicide bombing last week (which Saddam's folks have trumpeted was merely the first of many), this sort of thing was MORE likely to happen. Such bombings, btw, are illegal under international law.
Cruise missiles landing in people's front hallways? What are you referring to? Link please.
Economic consequences? Bringing Iraq's oil back on-line will be good for Iraq. And that doesn't even address the betterment of Iraqi peoples' lives when they are no longer under sanctions AND no longer at the tender mercies of Saddam's Mukhabarat.
Halliburton? Isn't it too bad that Halliburton has recused itself from the current wave of post-war contract awards? Oops.
So, you probably need an updated set of talking points, there.....
Posted by: Dean at April 1, 2003 at 07:34 PMNo, Habjan, you are wrong -- those are not "good points." Going to war "only when there is no other choice" is an impossible condition to meet -- What you and fruit bats like Winer are asking for is 100% surety, and you will never get that in any situation. The choice to go to war existed, as you say, among a number of other choices. We simply believed that war was the best solution to this problem, out of all the others. It's not the only solution -- it is the best solution. If you disagree, you need to list what choices you think should have been taken instead, list why you think they are better, and get ready to refute all those who will be ready to disagree with you and have evidence to back up your disagreement. Evidence, not appeals to emotions of guilt and discomfort.
As for the "trigger happy soldiers" comment -- you can go straight to hell, you smug bastard. Yes, that is an ad hominem attack -- go cry on someone else's blog about it. You don't know what it's like to be in combat, obviously -- you're the kind of creep who likes to pretend to indentify with the "victim" so you can impress other people with how compassionate you are. It doesn't work with me -- I have no patience for that kind of shit.
That also goes for the "cruise missiles landing in peoples' front hallways" -- oh, the humanity! Yeah, they landed in the front hallways of Saddam Hussein and associates. Do you expect me to cry about his palaces?
As for the destruction of the UN, you say that like it was a bad thing. Quite frankly, we need the land that useless pile is occupying.
Now, if you don't like opinions of this sort, I cordially invite you (on your way to hell, of course) to visit some other blog. Bye!
Posted by: Andrea Harris at April 1, 2003 at 07:42 PM"The van full of women and children murdered by trigger happy American soldiers..."
trigger happy??! clearly marked checkpoints, followed by "STOP, or WE'LL SHOOT!" followed by a warning shot.... man. not the most unbiased comment i've ever read, that's for sure.
Posted by: th3rma1 at April 1, 2003 at 07:42 PMAndrea, believe it or not, that was a typical Dave Winer post. He's been writing things like that since I first started reading him over two years ago. He's extremely liberal and seemingly has no idea how his words are interpreted by others.
Dave often seems genuinely surprised when people get mad at what he writes, such as when he enraged most female bloggers after telling us that men are hard-wired for things like programming and women are hard-wired for things like librarianism. I kid you not.
You may get a response from him on this, but he'll stick to his guns about what he wrote.
He may be a good programmer, but Dave should probably keep his political views to himself. People do tend to make fun of him when he writes them. A lot.
Posted by: Meryl Yourish at April 1, 2003 at 09:18 PMPerhaps there is a basic misunderstanding of concepts/terms...soldiers are trained to take/hold ground, break things and kill people, not to nation build, hand out food or be nice.
The fact that we task our soldiers do it all says more about us as a people than than the morals of a people where soldiers hide behind women and children.
Posted by: feste at April 1, 2003 at 09:38 PMAll the things being said now about Bush and his administration were said about Lincoln and HIS administration during the American Civl War. A great historical piece was written by Proteus here. By the way, Dean, Chamberlain was ousted because of his simplistic views on international politics (the "Peace in our time" reference) but Churchill was not re-elected, either. Ya just gotta wonder sometimes!
Posted by: BillH at April 1, 2003 at 10:33 PMMeryl: it's not the "extreme liberalism" but the stupidity that pisses me off. Personally, I don't think all liberals are natually stupid. After all, I am liberal about a lot of things. (List to follow... someday.) But the pie-eyed simplicity of his assertions makes George Bush look like Martin Buber. (And I'm one of those people who think Bush isn't all that stupid.)
Posted by: Andrea Harris at April 1, 2003 at 10:53 PMBillH: yes, good essay by Bill Whittle -- I keep meaning to link to it, then again everyone else has. Due to having a Civil War nut for a father I tend to avoid anything about the Woah of Nawthun Aggression like the plague, but I was reading a biography of John Adams and getting that same sense of déjà vu. (He even had that Alien and Sedition act thing going on that pissed everyone off -- shades of Patriot Act...)
Posted by: Andrea Harris at April 1, 2003 at 10:57 PMNo, feste, the fact that America CAN and DOES task soldiers to do so says a lot about American culture. *
what really scares me is that people like dave should be aware of and understand game theory...
they just never seem to apply it to any policy...
and i love the thing about not dealing with the world as it is, but rather as they wish it were (let's just say that pulling out halfway through is not a good way to conduct business)
Posted by: libertarian uber alles at April 1, 2003 at 11:39 PMJesus H. Bend Me Over and Fist Me Christ is now my most favorite phrase in the world.
Posted by: Kevin Parrott at April 2, 2003 at 12:51 AMLibertarian:
Some of the idiots who are majoring in Comp Sci with me where I go to school seem to have the same problem.
I never took a formal course on game theory, but I have a lot of experience in it, something I just picked up as kind of a hobby, and at time it is useful. I don't get how people like Winer can understand game theory and not even use it in the real world for baseline. That's the whole damned point anyway.
Some people are just dumb.
Posted by: James P at April 2, 2003 at 02:31 AMWhat's with all the liberal-bashing? We aren't all that bad, ...really.
There are quite a few of us out here who support the military efforts to overthrow the Iraqi thugs, but still think Bush Lite is an imbecile, and that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle and Wolfowitz are using this whole thing to advance their own agendas.
Sometimes even badly planned, agenda-driven conflicts can accomplish good results.
If it REALLY work-out well, Iraq will be free, and Bush will get dumped in 2004 for making such a mess of the early efforts at coalition-building.
Posted by: ChuckL at April 2, 2003 at 04:40 AMI believe Dave's "no other choice" argument is roughly equivalent to the "only as a last resort" bit. Which is itself fairly idiotic. I mean, I could consider an argument that says something like "war should only be considered if all other workable (read: effective) alternatives have been exhausted". I don't really agree with that, either, but at least it passes the bullshit detector.
After all, we haven't T.P.'ed Iraq yet. Maybe that would have worked.
Posted by: David Perron at April 2, 2003 at 06:17 AMChuck, I think what we're doing here is bashing Dave Winer, and as Andrea says above, it isn't the liberalism, it's the stupidity.
But I have to say, it would undermine my hard-won confidence in the American people, if Bush gets dumped just because he couldn't get Blacque Jacques Chiraq on board. Please!
Posted by: Kevin McGehee at April 2, 2003 at 07:15 AMthere were plenty of choices in this one.
Of course we do: appease, mollify, grovel, live in fear, convert to a perversion of Islam.
No thanks - I'll take the Arsenal of Democracy converting Islamic militants and Pan-Arabic militarists into fertilzer and Alpo.
As for Winer, comparing Iraq to a house is only accurate if the house in question is one of those about which we hear in frightful news stories where a child (or four) is left locked in a bathroom for years on end, with cockroaches and toilet water for sustenance.
Posted by: Michael Ubaldi at April 2, 2003 at 08:20 AMHe had an update the next day:
An update to last night's doctrine. "It's time to stick the tail between the legs and get the fuck out of there folks. This doesn't smell good."
Reminds me of when he said that 9-11 was a small tragedy compared to the number of people who die each year from smoking.
Like a lot of blogs, you extract the good stuff and throw the horseshit away. This doctrine post goes straight on the manure pile.
Posted by: at April 2, 2003 at 01:44 PMAre people like habjan actually serious about what they say?
Posted by: David at April 2, 2003 at 02:29 PMThis is typical Dave. Some of us in various programming communities have to put up with this sort of ranting on an all-too-regular basis.
Oh, and for the record, the consensus seems to be that he's not that great of a programmer, either. For more fun and frolic, I recommend http://winerlog.inspiredsites.net/.
Posted by: Randy at April 2, 2003 at 03:39 PMHey, just 'cuz we showed up in their country doesn't mean the Saddamites need to shoot at us! They have other choices open to them before committing acts of war: they could surrender, flee the country, or roll up in the fetal position and await justice. THEY chose war.
Posted by: livermoron at April 2, 2003 at 04:43 PMLivermoron:
Well, thanks for living down to your moniker.
You forgot to mention one little person: Saddam Hussein. Actually, worse, you DID in passing, but forgot to realize that he might have something to do w/ things.
Saddam had the ultimate choice: disarm, or not. He chose not. Just as you're free to steal a car, but that may come w/ a price, he was free to choose NOT to disarm, but that, too, came w/ a price.
All that's happened since is him paying the price.
Posted by: Dean at April 2, 2003 at 07:04 PMThe most bizarre (or evil?) line in Winer's rant is this:
"Even if by some miracle we should win it militarily, our occupying force is going to be picked off by suicide bombers from all over the Middle East."
How. The. Fuck. Could anyone think that there is even the remotest chance in hell of our military not winning...? Does this moron not realize that the U.S. military is, truly & deeply, the most powerful force on the planet? Seriously. We could take on 10 Iraqs at one time, and defeat them all. Well, assuming that we lightened up a bit on the "no civilian casualties" rule that humanizes America (thankfully).
Posted by: David (MSC) at April 2, 2003 at 07:49 PMDoes this motherfucker not understand that when you DON'T have a choice about war is usually when your enemy has already kicked shit off? Even Ken Pollack has said that if we hadn't done this now, we would have only put off dealing with Saddam until he'd built up substantial nuclear capabilities, and then HE would choose the time and place to fight.
Shit. For. Brains.
Posted by: Jackie D at April 2, 2003 at 09:43 PMAndrea: Yup, he makes really stupid arguments. There's a brain disconnect there.
The first thing Dave did on 9/12, and he blogged about it, was donate $100 to the Red Crescent.
The fucking Red Crescent, whose ambulances transport terrorists and bombs. And Dave's Jewish.
Anyway. As Randy said, some of us have known about this for years. I just stopped reading his blog, and watched my blood pressure reduce.
Posted by: Meryl Yourish at April 2, 2003 at 10:52 PMYeah, but that was $100 he earned working for The Man, and thus meant nothing to him.
Posted by: David Perron at April 3, 2003 at 01:19 PM