Tim Blair

"As Americans of faith, we express our deep sorrow at abuses committed in Iraqi prisons."

maybe they're refering to what saddam's boys ugly and queesy did?

Left on the editing room floor, all the holy folk, speaking in unison:

"Please don't kill us. We'll let you have Spain back."

faithfulamerica.org links to web sites that opposed the US's invasion of Iraq, and apparently itself opposes war with Iraq. If these people controlled the US's foreign policy, Saddam would probably still be in power.

"We apologize for what a bunch of morons from hillbilly country did one day, what with the panties and the laughing at tiny Iraqi penises, and think they're worse than mass graves containing thousands of bodies, and rape rooms, and the cut-off ears and arms and noses, and the gassing of the Kurds, and the feeding of rape victims to Saddam's dogs, and etc."

"Because we're gormless twits who haven't listened to the words of Jesus in all our lives, specifically the ones saying we should take care of our brothers as well as we do ourselves. Hey, Saddam was your god. If he wanted to kill you, that was all right with us."

Fine, it simply shows how so ashamed they are of the conduct of the US personnel in Iraq.

But in answer to your indirect charge of lack of apology by muslims-

First of all there have been apologies and it has been widespread but they don't get much airtime in the West; but does it have to be in the form of an advert on TV networks? If you interface with muslims and speak to them; then you will see the regret on their faces and fears for the future.

9/11 was the single incident in a long time that has put back and degraded the muslim cause for many years to come.

Most muslims will be deeply concerned at the actions of terrorists who are spoiling the name of
their religion and are endangering their own communities.

But there is a limit. Why should muslims be continually apologetic and ashamed for the actions of a few evil men.

Was 9/11 or Bali carried out by a democratically elected government of a muslim state? No.

Was it sanctioned by a leader of the muslims? No. Muslims never voted for Osam Bin Laden; they don't live in the same society as him,
so why should they apologise for him??

This is not the case for the US military. Their work in Iraq is supported and paid for by the US taxpayer- so yes
they MUST apologise if they fuck up, every single one of them.

The muslims have no caliph, they have no religious authority, no world leadership to turn, to, no 'vatican'.

They live within weak fragmented nation-states all over the world. A lot of muslims have seen the terror of failed
foreign policy of the US and the terror of the US military rain down on them. They also are victims of local terrorism and you support their repression through voting in of parties in Washington, Canberra and London
that will work to continue the status quo of terror.

Visit fightingterror.blogspot.com

Excellent rant, rhactive. Top notch.

This is not the case for the US military. Their work in Iraq is supported and paid for by the US taxpayer- so yes they MUST apologise if they fuck up, every single one of them.

Iraqis paid taxes to Saddam during his rule. Should "every single one of them" apologise for what their army did in Kuwait?

you support their repression through voting in of parties in Washington, Canberra and London that will work to continue the status quo of terror.

Absolutely true, and I'm glad to see you've finally seen the light. People, follow rhactive's keen advice: Don't vote for the Democrats (US) or Labor (AUS) or, ermm, Respect I guess (UK), or any other party that vows to continue the status quo of terror by being inactive in the face of it. Don't vote in any of them, ya hear me?

>>Was it sanctioned by a leader of the muslims? No.

Andjam- "Iraqis paid taxes to Saddam during his rule. Should "every single one of them" apologise for what their army did in Kuwait?"

Yes. Why not?

PW- Suicide bombing isn't the only form of terror- mate! So is using cluster bombs in urban areas and going into countries uninvited- these may also be quite terrifying.

10,000 dead in Iraq has also caused terror.

Yes, that's at least 10,000 families now terrified and angry. Well done!

"First of all there have been apologies and it has been widespread but they don't get much airtime in the West"

oh really? the few half-hearted mumblings i've seen have all contained the dreaded 'but...' clause, assigning blame for all terrorism, including gout and various intestinal maladies, to the great satan and her zionist protocolians.

"A lot of muslims have seen the terror of failed
foreign policy of the US and the terror of the US military rain down on them."

oh lookie here, you do it too; go figure.

rhactive,

Osam bin Laden could release a video proclaiming the virtures of baby stew and no one from the world of Islam would condemn it.

The local Islamic group where I live gets plenty of press but I have never read a press release from them condemning the shooting, burning, and killing that the Isalmists in the rest of the world do.

Perhaps the Islamists have a different set of moral rules that the rest of the globe.

Query: do Muslim clerics qualify as Muslim leaders?

Because sermons that they give every Friday, from Egypt to Saudi Arabia have a refrain that sounds like enticement to violence to my unsophisticated infidel ear:
"Oh, Allah, give us victory over the kaffir, help us kill all the Jews and Christians, sons of pigs and apes."

(Thanks, MEMRI)

"cluster bombs in urban areas"?

Is that anything like the "criminal use of depleted uranium in weaponry"?

That's right Steve.

Of course, if a Muslim makes a bomb out of non-depleted uranium, that's okay because it's harmless. Apparently the zionist depletion of uranium makes it more radioactive.

"Fine, it simply shows how so ashamed they are of the conduct of the US personnel in Iraq."

We all are. However, it wasn't torture and I believe we have apologized enough. We'll punish those responsible. Why dwell on this? People are acting as if it's the worst thing ever done. The humiliation and degradation were on a level with what one would find in a Frat initiation. I'm not defending it, just putting it into perspective.

"First of all there have been apologies and it has been widespread but they don't get much airtime in the West; but does it have to be in the form of an advert on TV networks?"

Why not a TV ad? Do you suppose this group will inspire the Islamists to apologize via an ad? I am not going to hold my breath.

To be honest, I have not encountered widespread public apologies from the Muslims. There have been some apologies, but not the fierce, public denunciation there should be.

Is this because ALL Muslims support the terrorists? NO. It's because even Muslims who hate what is being done in their name are afraid to speak out too loudly or too long. They will in private. But not much in public. There are a few brave souls who speak out publicly, but many do so in fear.

In the US, most of the organized, national, Muslim groups have been hijacked by people who support what the terrorists have done. They pretend to represent ALL US Muslims, but don't.
We have heard tepid apologies, at best. At worst we get a lecture about how we brought 9/11 upon ourselves.

I don't lump all Muslims together. I know there are Muslims who are decent, kind, people because I have Muslim friends. The Muslims that attacked the US on 9/11 are the same Muslims that kill other Muslims. These are the Muslims I call Islamists. These are the Muslims I want stopped because they want to set up a global Caliphate.

"9/11 was the single incident in a long time that has put back and degraded the muslim cause for many years to come."

Haven't you been following the news? Regarding the US, it was not a "..single incident in a long time..". Remember the Cole? The Marine Barracks? What about the first attack on the WTC? There are others. The attack on 9/11 was the worst in a string of attacks and it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Look at what the Islamists are doing, have been doing for a long time, world wide. Sudan? Afghanistan? Philippines? Malaysia?

What about Bali? Don't these count?

The Islamists want to destroy all cultures and religions that do not adhere to their brand of Islam. Even in Saudi Arabia itself, only one brand of Islam is allowed. The others, like Shia, are outlawed. Fellow Muslims aren't safe from the Islamists. Witness what they did in Afghanistan to the Muslims there.

It wasn't *just* 9/11. Wasn't *just* one incident. It was all the incidents world wide that have been taking place for a very long time.

It's a myth that we are 'at war with Islam'. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are at war with a group of people who identify themselves as Muslims and who have declared war upon us. These same Muslims, the Islamists, are also against any Muslim who won't follow their brand of Islam. They are a danger to all of us.

While we fight the Islamists, our soldiers will do terrible things. Is this because we are animals and hate the Muslims? NO. It's because we are all human beings and we don't have angels for soldiers. When we learn about these terrible things, we will punish those responsible. We show that we don't condone certain actions by punishing those who commit them.

The difference between our cultures and theirs is that we don't celebrate the degradation of other people, even those we are at war with. You won't ever see our citizens dancing in the streets and celebrating over an Islamist's death.

"Regarding the US, it was not a "..single incident in a long time..". Remember the Cole? The Marine Barracks? What about the first attack on the WTC? There are others. "

Don't forget the grandaddy of them, the one who started this party: The Tehran embassy hostage crisis.

(Cue "But the US supported the Shah!" excuse ... now.)

Moderate Muslims - and I know they are out there - have had plenty of times to put their feet down and say enough is enough, quit hijacking our religion, quit your rabid rhetoric, give up on obliterating Israel, quit with the schadenfreude every time the US appears to be wounded, quit blaming problems on omnipotent conspiratorial organisms, quit depending on duplicitous European "allies" (or anyone for that matter) and let's get to the 21st century already.

Or, alternatively, if you're too scared of Saddam and the mullahs and Mubaraks and Arafats and their ilk to do anything, then quit bitching when the US and (some of) its allies decide enough is enough and - by design or happenstance - give you an opportunity to take agency in your own lives

I'd love to see an advertisement like that. I won't, though. None of us will.

``Pledge to work and right these wrongs'' is hendiadys. You could use it to teach a new word to bored children.

let's see all the moderate muslim outrage over this. i ain't holding my plookin breath.

A salaam aleikum [peace be upon you], As Americans of faith

Major faux pas: under the dhimmi rules, kaffirs aren't entitled to "peace by upon you". As such, I suspect any positive reaction this ad is getting comes from the Arabs believing it's coming from American Muslims.

maybe they'll declare a fatwa against these 'americans of faith,' eh robert?

Why is it that every argument from a pro-Islamic poster starts out so reasonable and ends up like this:

They also are victims of local terrorism and you support their repression through voting in of parties in Washington, Canberra and London
that will work to continue the status quo of terror.

Blew your whole argument by blaming us yet again. Fool.

We condemn the sinful and systemic abuses committed in our name, and pledge to work and right these wrongs.

The U.S. military justice system has been working on it for over six months. Seems these self-righteous jackaninnies are just a tad late to the party. The U.S. military tends to be sticklers for punctuality. The jackaninnies would be advised to turn tail and run on home to mommy.

..was 9/11 or Bali carried out by a democratically elected government of a muslim state?...

You mean, you know of one?

Got this in an e-mail and think it's appropriate here. Hope it's not too long

I Am Not Sorry (Author unknown - sentiment shared.) For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre. I heard some Arabs and Muslims are asking for an apology. I humbly offer mine here: I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.). I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11. I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs. I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth. I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media. I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and hijacked the Palestinian "cause". I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians. I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems. I am sorry that our own left wing elite, our media, and our own brainwashed (from elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES) masses do not understand any of this. I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered. I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death. I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise." I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are a legitimate targets. I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making. I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group. I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state. I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah. I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site". I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites. I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc....etc! I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa. America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology. Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans. If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins

Why should islamic clerics be expected to apologise for terrorist acts done in the name of their religion? If these acts are inconsistent with the teaching of that religion, they hold no responsibility for them. Otherwise there is nothing to apologise for.

Atrocities, Tim? If wearing a TISM mask and having fake electrodes attached to one's genitals is an atrocity, we'll have to find a new word for what the "victims" did, let alone what the September 11 koranimals did. If masturbating is an atrocity, then many of us have committed atrocities without knowing it. What bizarre hyperbole to call these atrocities, especially from those who call terrorists "militnts". You're right Kevin, I'm not sorry either. I'm only sorry we haven't treated muslims with the same tolerance and decency they show to infidels.

Maybe because they are not inconsistent with their "religion", rexie? Maybe because the "religious" leaders spend much of their time encouraging islamic atrocities?

What's wrong with a global caliphate? If NATO and the EU are acceptable why not a muslim version?

"If these acts are inconsistent with the teaching of that religion, they hold no responsibility for them. Otherwise there is nothing to apologise for."-- rhactive

Apply that same reasoning to Abu Ghraib and no one but the guards have to apologize.

What's wrong with a global caliphate? If NATO and the EU are acceptable why not a muslim version?

Oh boy, rhactive descends into self-parody again...

Clem Snide.

Maybe because they are not inconsistent with their "religion", rexie? Maybe because the "religious" leaders spend much of their time encouraging islamic atrocities?

I think you are probably right about that. Certainly when I hear what is preached at Mecca I seriously wonder.

"If these acts are inconsistent with the teaching of that religion, they hold no responsibility for them. Otherwise there is nothing to apologise for."-- rhactive

Apply that same reasoning to Abu Ghraib and no one but the guards have to apologize.

There may be a slight difference in that the US ought to be exercising control over its prison warders, but it is less reasonable to expect the islamic clericy to influence the behaviour of al Qaeda.

I suspect many people look at Abu Ghraib like I do.

Cornered by vicious dogs: I've been attacked by vicious dogs.
Naked in front of women: Done that.
Uncomfortable positions for extended periods of time: I only ever fly economy.
Going without sleep for extended periods of time: I have infant children.
Tied up and had humiliating things done to you: I had a buck's night.

Sounds like I've been subjected to "abuse" doesn't it? If the majority of our population is wimpy enough to consider this to be savage torture, then we haven't got a hope.

Sounds like I've been subjected to "abuse" doesn't it?

Indeed it does, and you're now eligible to pick up your personal victim card at the local Office of Leftist Causes. Unless you're a WASP and/or a Republican (or the Australian equivalent of either, respectively), in which case everything is your fault, of course.

rhactive, NATO and the EU aren't theocracies. A Caliphate is.

Capice?

Chris J- "While we fight the Islamists, our soldiers will do terrible things. "

Oh sure. The only problem with that statement is that you didn't go to Iraq to fight Islamists!

You went there to rid the world of "an evil Ba'athist regime" and disarm Iraq of it's WMD!!

But now you have found yourself fighting a popular peoples insurgency were most people do approve of attacks on occupying forces!

That's nice except the erroneous "systematic abuse" clause. It was definately not systematic.

rhactive:

"But now you have found yourself fighting a popular peoples insurgency were most people do approve of attacks on occupying forces!

Emphasis is mine.

Let's see some support for your "popular" comment. "Popular" with Ba'athists? Islamofascists? Your circle of drinking buddies?

Yep, a lot of Iraqi polls show that want the US out of the country. On the other hand, the interim Iraqi leadership want US troops to say.

And then there's the evidence that foreign terrorists are operating in Iraq. This article is from October 2003, but still valid, I expect. You know -- old news?

And while some Iraqis are undoubtedly going out of their to fight the Coalition, not all are so willing, as noted in this article.

So this is not necessarily a popular "insurgency", but a bunch of terrorists coming to fight the Coalition.

Excellent. The more terrorists killed now, the less they'll kill later.

I spend much time in Indonesia and many Indonesian Muslims expressed sorrow, and anger after 9/11 and the SAri Club bombing. But I take your point that no Muslims went quite as far as the well-meaning inter-faith group in the States. But really, what's so wrong with what they did? Doesn't it demonstrate a great decency and magnanimity? Tim, are you saying we should take our cues from the terrorists, or should we continue to be civilized? The point about Abu Ghraib is not that it was ever as bad as anything the terrorists did (tho some idiots like Richard Neville and Terry Jones can't see a difference), it's that we, as enlightened western democracies, DON'T DO THIS SORT OF THING, regardless of the depraved behaviour of the people we're fighting against.

I am on the right, but I worry about this blog's kneejerk bovver-boy style.

Gee, thanks for the lecture, "Greek Isle." Yes, being "decent" and "magnanimous" isn't good enough. Of course it is understandable that most Muslims would rather just not say anything, or confine themselves to guarded expressions of condolences leavened with many a "but" to throw off the Islamist hounds. One or two or three Muslims have been brave enough to publicly state their anger at the actions of extremist terrorists, and have been rewarded with threats against their lives from their own "brothers and sisters." But that doesn't make the actions of the rest of the Muslim world any less inadequate. And if this blog so "worries" you, there are so many other blogs.

By that contorted logic, then, we make Muslims decent and civilized by being indecent and uncivilized. I'll bet you glorify Churchill. So do I. One of his finest quotes was "the Nazis will dotheir worst, and we will do our best". We'd be well-served following his advice.

PS, Tim, you might as well howl at the moon as continue railing against Islam. There are a billion of them. This isn't like communism; it's not going to vanish. A more nuanced strategy than your headbanging might be to find and support liberal Muslims. Yes, to be sure, they're a rare breed but what is the other approach?

Greek Isle:

You know very well what the other approach is - and it's the approach the islamic world has taken whnever the power imbalance was reversed. The worry about such expressions of magnanimity as the ads is that they are seen as a sign of weakness and degneracy to be exploited. And in this they are right. We need to respect their attachment to their barbaric culture, and speak to muslims in ways that they understand.

PS, Tim, you might as well howl at the moon as continue railing against Islam. There are a billion of them. This isn't like communism; it's not going to vanish.

Strawman argument. Nobody here has expressed the serious wish that Islam should vanish. We'll settle for exterminating the radical portion of it, thankyouverymuch.

A more nuanced strategy than your headbanging might be to find and support liberal Muslims.
Yes, to be sure, they're a rare breed but what is the other approach?

This is starting to have the ring of stories about the yeti or bigfoot..."I know they're out there, it's just that nobody has ever seen one and come back to tell about it." (Yes, I'm exaggerating.)

Besides, can you imagine the howls from the Left if the evil Bushitler had dared to offer strong, public support to, say, the Iranian student protests a few months ago?

Rhactive poses an interesting question:

"What's wrong with a global caliphate? If NATO and the EU are acceptable why not a muslim version?"

The problem with a global caliphate is that it would be GLOBAL, i.e. incorporating the entire globe. If you want to live under Islamic law, then be my guest and emigrate. We're certainly not having any of that kind of nonsense over here.

As for a regional caliphate: if any Muslim states voluntarily held referenda to form a popular federation, then I wouldn't mind. Unfortunately, the history of the caliphate suggests otherwise. You will more likely see a caliphate arise from one dominant Islamic state seizing territory from others. If that's what you want, then you should say so, rather than implying equivalence between this and the founding processes of NATO.

Yes, Greek Isle, I "glorify" Churchill. (Well, admire him anyway -- I don't "glorify" any human being.) But do you think that by "do our best" he meant sit and take it up the ass from the Nazis? Do you know how he was villified by the appeasers of his time for his warnings against Hitler and his insistence that the Nazis must be fought? Do you know any goddamn thing? I don't think you do, because if you did, you wouldn't have dared try to use the example of Winston Churchill of all people.

REVISED SCRIPT

IMAGES OF SADDAM'S ATROCITIES STARTING WITH HALABJA.

VOICEOVER: 'Americans of faith, we express our deep sorrow at abuses committed in Iraqi prisons. The hell we do.

'We remind you that many of the prisoners in that jail were the same scum bombing the crap out of your brothers' neighbourhoods in Iraq. Many were friends of the Saddam regime. Many colluded with the shocking brutalities of Uday and Qusay. And many will continue to thwart the transition of the vast majority of Iraq's 20 millions into peaceful, prosperous times. As you already know, handling such a combination of war criminals and suspected terrorists is not exactly Sunday school. If you would prefer to revert to Saddam's penal practices, just say so now.

'We further remind you that we will be more than happy to hand over the handling of this jail to Iraq, once sufficient officers can be recruited - despite the threats they receive from the likes of the many pro-Saddamites both in and out of jails like Abu Ghraib. And we will observe the results of that with interest.

'And as for the justice and human dignity crap, that hasn't exactly been flavour of the month in this particular dustbowl of a global region too often lately - so what's with all the whining since Abu Ghraib? Anyone?

'Plus - as for that dumbass clergy copywriter slyly adding the word 'systemic' into the original script. Nice try pal. But you couldn't be further wrong.

Salaam aleikum.

Or in our language - enjoy your day.'

END TITLE: ABU GHRAIB. WE'RE OVER IT. IT'S ABOUT TIME THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS TOO.

The ad apology doesn't hurt. I fully support the liberation of Iraq as does GWB last time I checked and if it's ok for him to apologize I see nothing wrong for other Americans to express their feelings of regret for the events as well.
What is the downside to the apology? Al Qada sees people of many faiths in the US uniting and apologizing to other Arabs. Maybe they would see this as a weakness on the Americans part....How foolish...it is our greatest strength.