Too Much To Dream

"If I still thought there was any possibility that I could communicate with aldahlia I'd ask her just what the hell she was talking about."

What is that supposed to mean?

And, I'm sorry if I think that the dead should be let to rest. I have no problem with a commemorative ship. I think that a USS New York, built with the intention of honoring the victims is a fine idea--I'm surprised it hasn't been done already, honestly. I just don't think that the ship should be made from the building--I think that it's in poor taste. But, then, when I think of the WTC, I get sad, not angry. So, maybe that's the difference.

Yes, I don't think there is any possibility of communicating with someone who doesn't get angry over what happened on September 11th. Someone kills three-thousand plus of your own fellow citizens and aspiring citizens and some foreign resident workers as well -- and you get all "sad." You think the proper response is not to get angry at the sort of people who would do this thing, and/or promote, sponsor, and encourage more acts like it, but instead to mope picturesquely and then probably talk a lot about "closure" and "healing" and "moving on." That's pathetic.

I didn't say that there was a "proper response." I've never stated anywhere* that there is a proper response. All I said that "sad" is **my* response.

Apparently, however, you think that there is indeed a proper response.

(off topic--why did that go bold?)

More evidence of our exuberant, youthful, patriotic, national warlike predelictions, I guess.

It is almost funny the way different people react to such an artifact. Almost.

Here I sit 2000 miles away from Ground Zero, and I want something to force me to remember every stinking day. I want a bolt or a shard or a sliver to weld to the inside of my front door so that I, and my kids, don't ever forget. Never, never, never.

Scott: I don't need a physical reminder myself. Considering the response of some people, I'm not sure a piece of the Towers would be any more efficacious than mere words.

Aldahlia: I don't object to sadness per se, only to the implied moral superiority of the Ostentatious Grievers. Those are the people who go around shaking their heads in disapproval at all us "angry people." "Look at them, wallowing in their anger." And I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. Not once smidgen of anger on behalf of the slain? If I thought for a minute you were utterly sincere, I'd think you were inhuman. I think (this is mere speculation on my point), on the other hand, that you have denied any anger you felt because anger is disapproved of in our society -- anger is an emotion that demands action, you can't just sit there and stew helplessly like you can with "sadness." Grief is safe, anger is scary. People prefer sadness -- it's a soft emotion, and garners sympathy in others. Angry people run the risk of alienating others. Be that as it may, I'd rather be mad than sad. Terrorists aren't afraid of sad people. They want us to be sad. They want us at home sobbing in front of the teevee, so they can build their bombs and plan their atrocities in peace and quiet.

As for the reason your comment went bold, I have Textile formatting turned on for the comments. An asterisk on either side of a word has the same effect as html "b" tags.

9/11. get over it. so some guy was clever enough to put the superpower on its ass, for a minute or two. so fucking what. one night of interesting T.V. and a load of fucking repeats. A waitress in baghdad working in a restaurant where saddam might have been, but wasn't. Or someone in the WTC. It's all the same. I'll be innocent when i die too. And the GI who died yesterday, today and tommorrow. Perhaps he shouldn't have been hanging around on the corner of tough and shit street.

Gee neil, it must be nice to be a nihilist punk loser. It means you don't have to do a damn thing about anything. It must suck to be you.

Gosh, Neil, I'm so sorry your mama didn't abort you before you had to suffer the indignity of breathing the same air as everybody else.

I was going to write this for aldahlia, but it can be for neil, too. I would be very happy to have any of the scrap metal from the towers melted down and made into something useful:

Ordnance.

Not to defend aldahlia, because I am still too angry myself...that sort of thing happens when I or someone I love gets hurt...but the superstition part does have some ring of truth to it...on a whole, naval tradition has a history of superstition...this I am learning from reading Patrick O'Brien's books, which are considered to be the most accurate portrayals of sea life in literature. And the book I am reading, "Desolation Island", Maturin has to reign in a gypsy passenger who is fomenting rumor and discontent among the sailors by calling the vessel unlucky. That sort of thing will piss off a Captain REAL quick...and Aubrey is not too happy about it.

Consider that having women on board was a superstition at one time....maybe it is still so, but aldahlia has a SLIGHT point about unluckiness of this situation...but then, the superstition might go the other way...would be interesting to hear from someone who is in the Navy now and knows naval history...

"I mean... here you are on a boat made out of steel that fell down on top of and tragically killed many, many people. It's obviously not the luckiest steel on earth."

I supposed it depends on how you look at it. Yes, the steel did eventually fall and kill people, but before it did that it absorbed the impact of a jet aircraft and stood -- if I recall correctly --for at least an hour, allowing most people to exit the building and reach safety. And when it did collapse, it did so exactly as it was designed to; it didn't just tumble over and kill even more people across the city. I don't see that metal as cursed. I see it as doing its duty for as long as it was able, just like the U.S. servicemen and servicewomen it will eventually support when it is incorporated into the U.S.S. New York.

Mrs. Raven is absolutely right. The steel in the towers reduced the death toll from potentially 50,000 to only 3,000. If I were superstitious, that's the kind of steel I'd want around me.

Of course, I still like the idea of ordnance.

Setting aside the existence of the metaphysical properties (doubtful) of the steel, the incorporation of the steel in the ship is a fine memorial or a choice target for the Islamist fanatics. I am not sure which, probably both.

What is not helpful is politicizing your sadness or anger to attempt to prove the moral superiority of the Left or Right. Save that for the policy decisions of our government whether they are Dem or Rep.

Only problem with ordnance, ken, is that shells are brass, and cannons and the like need to be fairly specific alloys (different material properties are needed, of course, in cannons than are in girders).

Wheras, in contrast, more normal building steel is almost certainly a lot closer to structural steel for a ship.

A "symbolic" beam in a ship seems to me to best combine practicality and symbolic power - after all, the steel was structural before, and it'll be structural again.

As for unluckiness, well, we'll have to let the sailors decide what they feel is appropriate. I suspect that they won't have much of a problem with it.

Putting the steel of the Twin Towers in the ship is symbolic, that is understood. Why can't you accept that some people don't symbolize the same as you, and that some people interpret symbols differently than you? Why is it unacceptable to interpret differently? I can see it how both of you do. I can see it being symbolic in a positive light like you, however, I DO kind of think it's in bad tastes BECAUSE 3000 people died in those buildings. You can call that wreckage sanctified, or you can call it cursed.

I was angry after 9/11. So angry I even fooled myself into thinking that Bush was doing the right thing for a while. But now, the waters have settled and I can look back objectively and all I am is sad. Anger prohibits effective and positive emotional growth. I can't truly learn from 9/11 being so ANGRY. You can't change the past.

Forcing everyone to think the same way IS fundamentalism, so if you can't celebrate diversity, then you are the problem. If you can't respect differences in choices, lifestyles and opinions, then you are infected by the same mindset of a terrorist. I'm not saying that's YOU, because I don't know YOU, but I am saying that you are overdramatizing this thing with aldahlia, and she's been very respectful towards you - moreso than you have been to her.

I'm not sad I'm ANGRY but I don't still don't think using steel from the WTC in a ship is a good idea. Where it should be used is in a Navy Boat, preferably a Nuclear Missile Submarine (which are called Boats, not Ships) so it will be a constant reminder to ourselves and our enemies of how the United States of America responds to WMD... And I seriously doubt that the sailors would consider it unlucky in any way.

Sigivald, I know, I'm a shooter. I just like the idea.

Sam - that's right, you can't change the past. But you can make damn sure they can't do it again (by which criterion, Bush has been pretty successful for two years). And you can make sure that their potential friends also get the message - apparently, a certain Libyan colonel did.

Sam typeth:

Anger prohibits effective and positive emotional growth.

Behold, the fruits of the modern educational system: Earnest Young Folk who emit Therapist-Speak like spooked squid squirting ink.

And to answer your question:

Why is it unacceptable to interpret differently?

Because "different" is often used as a masking term for what should actually be called "wrong."

Forcing everyone to think the same way IS fundamentalism, so if you can't celebrate diversity, then you are the problem. If you can't respect differences in choices, lifestyles and opinions, then you are infected by the same mindset of a terrorist.

So, sam, why can't you accept the fact that I think differently from you? Why can't you accept my "diversity"? You know, I think I'm being discriminated against. Oppressor!

My cousin gave me her sister's Star of David at her sister's funeral. Sharon was wearing it the night she was killed in a drunk driving accident.

I wore it because it was hers, and it reminded me of her. No other reason than that, and it was enough.

"So it will be a constant reminder to ourselves and our enemies of how the United States of America responds to WMD."

By WMD, do you mean commercial airplanes? I'm just confused by that whole post....

I have no idea what iplimac was saying either.

So what do you think steel from the World Trade Center should be used for? Car bumpers? Another skyscraper? Maybe it should just lay around rusting forever. Would that be a suitable memorial? Or how about a memorial? That's a reasonable idea but remember that there was a lot of steel in the WTC. It will go to a lot of different places, most of which we won't even know about. Maybe in a couple of years you'll buy a screwdiver or a pair of scissors made of steel from the Twin Towers. Kind of creeps you out to think about it, huh? So don't think about it. Think about the people, not about lifeless objects.

The body of the projectiles for artillery, naval or land, are generally cast iron or steel with an explosive filler. And bomb casings are the same, so it would work. And, if you have to melt the steel & add some alloying elements to it, the steel is still there. And yeah, I like the idea.

Well, Mark settled that discussion. Let's do it.

I wonder about the people who reject "anger" as a reaction to 9/11. How do these people behave in their personal lives? It seems to me that many who are "above" anger on the national level--who refuse to get too exercised about the murder of their fellow citizens--are very feisty about anything that affects them personally. If someone grabs a parking space ahead of them...if a rival is doing too well at work...if the teacher doesn't give their kid a good enough grade...then watch out. There won't be a lot of talk about "understanding" and "forgiveness."

it's steel for the U.S.S. We're Coming To Gitcha".

I hope I'm not doing the wrong thing in still posting here-- (Andrea... if you tell me to leave, I will.)

David--you don't know me. And, really--I'm just not a "road rage type" person.

Truthfully--and I know this will qualify me for Guantanamo with some of you--I grew up in a middle-eastern American household. I have brothers that are named "Mahmood" and "Hussein." So... While I said that I fully (100%) approve of :

1. Monuments for the victims
and
2. Eliminating Al-Quida and Bin Laden

I am still, simply sad about what has happened. I have seen, all my life, the interplay of Southern Texan and Middle Eastern people, and, on a personal level, I am very sad that things aren't somehow different. I am just... hopeful above all, that my children won't have to worry about mid-eastern terrorism. But, the anger part... isn't for me or my background.

I duly apologize if my post hurt anyone.
And, Meryl Yourish had made the most sense to me... I understand wanting to "remember." I have dead relatives of my own. I simply think that it's not fair to use that steel.

Thanks for the reply, aldahlia...I'm sure you are telling the truth that you're not a "road rage" sort of person. But I've observed that many of the people who talk about "love and peace" in the abstract are indeed such people on a personal level. The comment wasn't directed at you personally.